Cosmerenauts ahoy! Lo, on the horizon looms another reread post with Lyndsey and Alice! Or something like that. Anyway, welcome back to Oathbringer, as Shallan gets embarrassed (again) and Pattern expands his vocabulary. Also, Adolin refuses to be embarrassed, which is also entertaining.
Lyn: ::crashes through door:: Did someone say Adolin?
Alice: Welcome back, Lyn! Thought you might enjoy this chapter…
L: What, me? Enjoy an Adolin chapter? NEVER. (Because I’m totally not obsessive enough to be cosplaying him most of this weekend at JordanCon or anything…)
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread, and this week we make a tiny reference to the Mistborn trilogy which may spoil a plot point in the original trilogy. If you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer and Mistborn: The Final Empire, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Shallan
WHERE: Urithiru
WHEN: 1174.1.3.3 (Two days after Chapter 12)
We open the chapter with Shallan getting in some Lightweaving practice with her Veil persona. Adolin arrives with some dinner for the both of them, and they engage in some light-hearted banter, including a rather amusing conversation about… ::ahem:: mating. Adolin reveals that he feels as if Shallan is above him in station, and Shallan admits that she’s afraid of messing up their burgeoning relationship. The two share a kiss, and then we’re off to the next chapter…
Threshold of the storm
Title
The title, as becomes hilariously obvious, is based on Pattern’s assigned role during this scene where Shallan and Adolin are (otherwise improperly) alone in her room.
“Pattern, you’re to be our chaperone tonight.”
“What,” Pattern said with a hum, “is a chaperone?”
We’ll get into that answer a bit later.
Heralds
A: For some reason that isn’t immediately obvious, Ishar holds all four Herald spots this week. He represents the role of Priest, the divine attributes Pious and Guiding, and is the patron of the Bondsmiths. I’m honestly not sure why he’s here.
L: Well.. Ishar’s the Herald of Bondsmiths, right? Adolin and Shallan are bonding in this chapter for sure. They both reveal things to one another that they’ve been worried about regarding their relationship, and grow a little closer because of it. As for the divine attributes of pious and guiding… I suppose it could be Pattern’s influence? He’s “guiding” them to be “pious”…
A: Hah! I like it.
Icon
A: Shallan’s “Pattern” icon would tell us that it’s her POV chapter, if anyone on this reread had actually forgotten what a chapter titled “Chaperone” was all about.
Epigraph
I ask only that you read or listen to these words.
—From Oathbringer, preface
Relationships & Romances
A: ADOLIN & SHALLAN FTW!
L: I do adore this relationship. It’s just… such a healthy one, even though Shallan herself is so broken, emotionally. I think she needed someone with the emotional stability of Adolin to help ground her.
A: Exactly. He’s so good for her: so willing to love her without condition, and to be a rock for her to lean on. And honestly, I think Adolin is one of those guys who is at his best when someone needs him, so she’s good for him too.
Adolin didn’t even have the decency to blush at finding her practically naked.
L: I suppose this raises the question, how experienced is Adolin in matters of love, really? I’d assume that pre-marital sex is frowned on in Alethi society based on Shallan and Pattern’s reactions in this chapter, so we can probably assume that he hasn’t been sleeping around, but… that’s not discounting the possibility of naughty shenanigans with any number of ladies he’s courted. Is he used to seeing ladies with their safe-hands uncovered? Eh? Eh?
A: Well, for what it’s worth, Shallan is Veden rather than Alethi, and I think they have stricter views on such things. Still, I had just assumed that since Adolin never seemed to avoid offending every girl within a week or two of beginning their courtship, he’d never gotten to that point.
L: ::snicker:: I have to admit, I kind of miss him getting slapped by random girls he’s unknowingly wronged.
A: The slapping most definitely had its entertaining aspects! Now that he’s actually betrothed, I suppose they have to stop, though. Anyway, the safehand certainly didn’t phase him here, so maybe he’s just not one to boast of his conquests.
L: He certainly doesn’t seem to be the type to kiss and tell.
“I’d have thought that imitating a woman to catch a glimpse of a young lady in her undergarments was beneath you, Adolin Kholin.”
“Oh, for Damnation’s sake, Shallan. Can I come in now?”
L: I love how he doesn’t put up with her BS. And not only that, he gives it as good as he takes it:
“Back of your left thigh, eh? What’s a girl got to do to sneak a glimpse of that?”
“Knock like a man, apparently.”
A: This entire exchange cracks me up every time. I don’t know how often I’ve read it, and… Every. Single. Time. ::gigglesnort::
Ash’s eyes… he actually thought she was pretty. This wonderful, princely man actually liked being with her. She’d traveled to the ancient city of the Knights Radiant, but compared to Adolin’s affection, all the sights of Urithiru were dun spheres.
L: D’aaawwwwww. Gotta love that honeymoon stage of the relationship.
A: I hope the wonder never fades. I mean, sure, she’ll get used to the fact that he adores her, but given her personality and history, I’m guessing there will always be a tinge of astonishment whenever she thinks about it.
“It wasn’t a lecture, it was a creative application of my tongue to keep you distracted.” Looking at his lips, she could think of some other creative applications for her tongue…
A: It’s a good thing Pattern is being such a useful chaperone, eh?
L: Gotta say, I appreciate the fact that these two have real chemistry. It’s one of the things that always bothered me a bit about the Mistborn trilogy—Elend and Vin’s relationship seemed so flat and lifeless. Now, I’m not implying that Sanderson needs to be putting in sex scenes every ten pages, but it’s really nice to see a character admitting some physical attraction for another in one of these books. Especially since it’s the woman having these thoughts.
“I don’t know. You’re a Radiant, Shallan. Some kind of half-divine being from mythology. And all along I was thinking we were giving you a favorable match.”
L: I guess this would be sort of like learning that your fiancee was a… a mermaid, or something. Or maybe one of Zeus’s long-lost half-human children. Or a Time Lord. I can see why Adolin is suddenly feeling a little overwhelmed. These magical powers she’s manifested are probably as unbelievable to the Alethi as the things I listed above would be to our modern society.
A: It would be a little frightening as well, I’d think, since the Alethi culture has presented the Knights Radiant as betrayers of humanity, and basically anathema. It’s all well and good to say that the times, they are a-changin’—but you don’t just drop everything you believed so easily. Intimidating, at the very least.
L: And yet, Adolin never shows any hint of being afraid of any of his Radiant friends and family. He puts the person first and judges them based on WHO they are, not WHAT they are. We’ve seen this in other aspects too—how he treated the prostitute in book one, and how chummy he is with those who are beneath him in station.
A: I think if you looked in the Alethi dictionary for “unflappable” you might find a picture of Adolin. If things like this bother him, he doesn’t show it much. The only thing we’ve ever seen to make him visibly lose his cool is a direct threat to his family. But I still think it would be a little intimidating.
L: I’d love to quote the entire rest of this chapter because honestly it’s all just so sweet and endearing.
A: I love the bit where he’s brought her his favorite books about the Makabaki and politics, because he noticed that she seemed a bit lost on that subject. Along with that, there’s a nice reminder that yes, despite not being able to read for himself, he actually does have a pretty decent education in the kinds of things highprinces need to know—beyond hitting people with swords.
L: The two of them are so perfect together. Both have their insecurities, their failings, and the other is willing to help them overcome them without malice. Yes, there are secrets they’re keeping from one another. But as we’ll see, when those secrets come out, they respect the reasons the secrets were kept and continue to support one another. It’s so rare to see stable, respectful relationships in fantasy novels.
Bruised & Broken
It was stuck in her mind, and every time she thought about it, the gaping wound flared up with pain again. Shallan had killed her mother. Her father had covered it up, pretended he’d murdered his wife, and the event had destroyed his life—driving him to anger and destruction.
Until eventually Shallan had killed him too.
L: Dayum, Shallan. Girl’s got baggage. No wonder her personality is splintering into shards. This is some pretty heavy stuff for anyone to deal with.
A: I’ve said this about a million times, but I have to say it again. While I can understand that people don’t find it exactly pleasant to read about her fracturing, I’m still glad it happens. If she had simply accepted those truths at the end of WoR and cheerfully moved on, she’d be treading mighty close to Mary Sue-ness. With her past, a good resolution has to be more difficult than simply acknowledging what she did.
She would not hate him. She could hate the sword she’d used to kill her mother, but not him.
L: ::sniff::
A: ::passes tissues::
Stories & Songs
A: Urithiru is still so much of a mystery, even after a whole book of living in it. Who? What? How? Brandon put to rest the theory that it was a spaceship, fortunately. (I never could get behind the idea that it was the ship humans used to travel from Ashyn to Roshar. It just didn’t make sense to me.) ANYWAY:
Her room was ornamented by bright circular patterns of strata on the walls. The stone was smooth to the touch, and a knife couldn’t scratch it.
L: This little snippet interests me. A knife couldn’t scratch it, eh? What type of rock could this be, then? Also, this somewhat implies to me that all the stone—despite the striations—is of the same type, despite the differences in color…
A: What interests me is the choice of words. Strata don’t naturally form circular patterns, coils, swirls, spirals, twists, and various other adjectives used in this book. I mentioned this (several times) in the beta, yet here they still are—so I can only conclude that it’s deliberate. This, combined with a scene we’ll get to in Chapter 38, at first led me to suspect that Urithiru was formed by Stonewards. Then I changed that to “someone manipulating the Surge of Tension, so maybe Bondsmiths.” If it was prior to the formation of the Knights Radiant, it could have been someone(s) who could Surgebind Tension. It could have been Ishar and/or Taln who formed it. But right now… I’ll lay a bet on the involvement of an early Bondsmith who was bonded to the Sibling. I’d guess it was a cooperative effort.
I’d also bet the big glass wall is pure silicon dioxide with Invested Cohesion to keep it perfectly clear, unrippled, and unbroken. That might also explain why knives can’t scratch the stone—it’s too Invested with Cohesion. Which would imply the involvement of Stonewards, come to think of it. And now I’m straying deeply into the Speculative Realm, so I’ll drop it!
Tight Butts and Coconuts
L: This whole chapter is just full of gems, but here are some of our favorites:
“In my defense,” Adolin said from outside, “you did invite me in.”
“Isn’t that the sort of thing you do? Strangle rocks, stand on your head, throw boulders around.”
“Yes, I have quite my share of murdered rocks stuffed under my bed.”“I just realized,” he said, “that this is your bedroom.”
“And my drawing room, and my sitting room, and my dining room, and my ‘Adolin says obvious things room’.”“Your ego doesn’t count as a separate individual, Shallan.”
L: Oh, Adolin. How little you know.
A: I’m not quite sure whether to laugh or sigh.
Weighty Words
I’m going to put this in here, because it has to do with Shallan’s Lightweaving powers.
She’d started to wonder, how far could she go in changing how things sounded?
L: This is interesting to me. Assuming that Lightweaving is… well, LIGHTweaving, how is she managing to make changes to SOUND? Sound, if I am not mistaken, has to do with air, not light. Right?
A: According to the Ars Arcanum, Illumination is “the Surge of Light, Sound, and Various Waveforms”—whatever all that might include, apparently it’s a lot bigger than its name. So she can manipulate sound as well as light.
L: Can we just pretend that I totally remembered that and was only asking in order to leave you the opening to explain it? ::ahem::
A: Absolutely. It was very gracious of you, too, because it gives me the chance to sound all learned and stuff. Also, this just occurred to me: Did the Lightweavers (or some earlier version of them) manipulate cymatics to create protection for the cities Kabsal tells Shallan about in TWoK, Chapter 33?
Shallan cocked her head. The pattern in the sand looked exactly like Kholinar. He dropped more sand on the plate and then drew the bow across it at another point and the sand rearranged itself. “Vedenar,” he said. She compared again. It was an exact match. “Thaylen City,” he said, repeating the process at another spot. He carefully chose another point on the plate’s edge and bowed it one final time. “Akinah. Shallan, proof of the Almighty’s existence is in the very cities we live in. Look at the perfect symmetry!”
L: 
The trick to happiness wasn’t in freezing every momentary pleasure and clinging to each one, but in ensuring one’s life would produce many future moments to anticipate.
L: This is beautiful, and I think it’s something that we in our day to day lives should remember, especially in these days when everyone has a smart phone and the temptation to take photos and videos of every passing moment is so omnipresent. Often I have to remind myself to put down the camera and just live in the moment, but Sanderson takes it one step further, reminding us to actively work to create more of these moments to enjoy. It’s really a powerful sentiment.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
A: A.k.a. Pattern is hilarious.
L: Case in point:
“Inappropriate?” Pattern said. “Such as… dividing by zero?”
I’m not a math person, and even I find this funny. I do find Shallan and Adolin’s reactions to this interesting, though. They both seem confused. I’m wondering how much the peoples of Roshar know about higher level math—or really, any math at all. We know that the women are the ones who are generally the bookkeepers, and some of the ardentia are doing scientific measurements and so forth of spren, but would the Alethi have any concept of algebra of anything higher? Obviously the Cryptics do, but how? Is this knowledge that has been passed down among them? How does it tie into what we know about them already?
A: I would assume that the engineers know maths up through algebra and trigonometry, and probably understand at least the basic functionality of calculus. We just haven’t seen it, because we haven’t been in the right heads for that information. Adolin wouldn’t, of course, and I don’t think Shallan’s studies tended much in that direction. She was more into the natural sciences, art, literature, history, etc. I’d bet Renarin would have understood it, though.
L: And now I really want to see Pattern and Renarin having a fun chat about math.
“Oh!” Pattern said suddenly, bursting up from the bowl to hover in the air. “You were talking about mating! I’m to make sure you don’t accidentally mate, as mating is forbidden by human society until you have first performed appropriate rituals! Yes, yes. Mmmm. Dictates of custom require following certain patterns before you copulate. I’ve been studying this!”
L: Hooboy. Okay so, there’s a lot to laugh at in this (accidentally mate?!), and believe me, I am, but there’s also some interesting parallels to that scene between Syl and Kaladin regarding spren and mating. Alice, I forget, did you and Paige get into spren reproduction at all when you guys discussed that chapter?
A: A little, but not any… ah, practical aspects? Mostly the mental image of Syl making “babies” out of a bunch of windspren, and teaching them to harass Kaladin. Also, Baby Windspren Shardplate.
L: Hmm, okay. So we know that spren are much longer-lived than humans—practically immortal, right? Even if they’re “killed” (as the old Knights’ Radiant spren were) they’re still not really dead, just wandering around Shadesmar all creepy-like?
A: Pretty much, yeah. Syl was relatively young at the time of the Recreance, but most of the other honorspren were much older.
L: I… seem to remember something being mentioned in the Shadesmar travel section about spren children, but it’s been so long.
A: Yeah, it’s there. Paige and I decided to leave the reproduction discussion until we get to that part of the book.
L: Okay, so… how the heck do they reproduce? Is it asexual? Or do… do new ideas or concepts just sort of… coalesce in Shadesmar into spren? I’d assume that if something physical is created, the “marbles” would join together and merge (so say someone made a knife with a wooden handle, the marble for the metal and that for the handle would merge into one) as matter is neither created nor destroyed, but how does this work for ideas and emotions?
A: I think I’ll stand by that decision! It’ll come up again in… oh, a year or so. At that point, I’d love to get into not only how “baby honorspren” are made, but the possibility of new kinds of spren if a truly new concept emerges.
Quality Quotations
You couldn’t balance a book on Veil’s head as she walked, but she’d happily balance one on your face after she knocked you unconscious.
* * *
“… Sometimes secrets are important.”
Adolin nodded slowly. “Yeah. Yeah, they are.”
* * *
Perhaps a chaperone who believes basically everything I tell him isn’t going to be the most effective.
* * *
“Very well, you two,” Pattern said. “No mating. NO MATING.”
* * *
“Is there anyone who actually is? I mean, is there really someone out there who looks at relationships and thinks, ‘You know what, I’ve got this’? Personally, I rather think we’re all collectively idiots about it.”
* * *
“Please. You’ve courted, like, half the warcamps.”
Okay, so we could just copy and paste the entire chapter in here, but we’ll stop. Really. But you can share the ones we missed in the comments!
Next week we’ll tackle two chapters. Chapter 14 is a super-short Kaladin chapter, about 3 pages long, and then 15 is a mid-size Shallan chapter returning to this scene. So we’ll take both of them in one week, and then slow down with a much longer Chapter 16 the week after.
Alice is trying hard not to envy everyone going to JordanCon, but she nonetheless hopes they/you all have a fantastic time, and looks forward to hearing the stories and seeing the pictures. Shenanigans, commence!
Lyndsey is excited to be leaving for her first JordanCon tomorrow, where she’ll be helping to judge the Costume Contest! Look for her in various Sanderson cosplays all weekend, in the karaoke room, or at her panel “Making Con-Safe Weapons” on Sunday. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her updates on Facebook or her website.
The epigraph seems really on the nose this week.
Epigraph
The thing Adolin and Shallan need is to listen to each other and they do. Good work, you two kids.
Hey, I got here first! :D
Haven’t even had the time to read the article, yet, but NO MATING. No matter how many times I read it, it always cracks me up. Even my non-Cosmere-aware friends have heard it. Oh, Pattern, you are adorable …
Edit: Darn. Delete the first sentence as soursaviour probably clicked send while I was still typing :D
Maybe I have my mind in the gutter, but I always assumed that Adolin slept around. There was the time Adolin saved the prostitute from that Sadeas solider, so the concept of sex outside of a marriage exists.
@3 I agree, I assumed the slaps were from not marrying them after. Adolin doesn’t seem the sort to wait for the rituals.
This chapter most impressively makes me enjoy a scene of prolonged interaction between people in love. Being deeply afflicted with envy, I usually can’t abide such things in real life or fiction, but Shallan and Adolin are so funny, witty, and sweet together, and Shallan is so wise here.
You posted my favorite quotes — the ones about happiness, Veil’s priorities, and the fact that most people in relationships are stumbling through them. I especially need to remember the latter, when it seems to me that everyone else has it all figured out and intuitively understands things in a way I don’t. To me as an outsider, mating often seems as incomprehensible and impossible as dividing by zero.
It’s not perfect. I disliked the joke about a man “imitating a woman to catch a glimpse of a young lady in her undergarments” because it’s exactly the kind of thing that fuels lethal transphobia in our world, even if that isn’t on the characters’ minds. And to me, the slang use of “screwing it up” seemed especially jarring and out of place as slang goes in this story, even as a “translation” into Earth terms.
Poor Pattern, tasked with preventing “inappropriate” things but initially baffled as to what those might be. At least I understand human social rules a little better than he does, even if I can’t spot a lie.
In the fandom, I believe “Dividing by zero” and “NO MATING!” have become the Oathbringer equivalent of WoR’s meme-spawning “I am a stick.”
My first thought about Adolin’s birthmark was how he knew about it, since the back of one’s own thigh is generally hard to see. I guess someone told him about it and he looked with a hand mirror, which would work better for a fully-sighted person than it does for me.
Skipping meals with Sebarial and Palona? That’s dedication!
I share Shallan’s opinion on spicy food, even without the societal gender coding. What’s the fun of eating something that hurts your mouth? (I wonder the same thing about carbonated drinks, but usually find those more tolerable)
I read Oathbringer around the time that a family member started dating and have always liked imitating pattern… So, predictably, I said “No mating!” when I saw them kiss. I did it enough times that my little brother, who doesn’t really know what he’s saying, has started yelling that at everyone he sees kissing. Mission accomplished.
I love this chapter: it was one of my favorite ones during the re-read. I also think it is great to hear people speak of the romance arc in a positive way as I read so many negative comments on it, it became jarring.
I always thought Adolin/Shallan had good chemistry in the sense they bring out the best out of each other, they balance each other well and there is a mirror to their backstories which gives me hope they will come to understand each other even better, once all the beans are spilled out.
This being said, I am surprised none of you spoke of Adolin being born under the sign of nine because this has been a major discussion point and it still launched within discussion as a “foreshadowed” sign of Adolin turning to Odium… I quite frankly never believed in those theories and I got to the point where I wonder what Adolin has to do for some readers to stop thinking he is hiding an evilness we have yet to really see.
Others will probably remember my discussion on education and how I felt the reason Adolin couldn’t read glyphs might have been due to him not exactly getting said education back during the WoR re-read. Some may also recall how “Adolin not being intelligent” and “Kaladin being very intelligent” was one of the pro Kaladin/Shallan shiping argument. Well…. Can I say how amazed I am we got the Adolin is carrying books with him, books he has not only read, but enjoyed and admitting, in a rather off-handed manner, he does kind of know about international politic? Finally. All my talk of Adolin actually being far from dumb paid off: in one moment, Brandon did tell the readers, yeah, this guy is smart, he just doesn’t show it, he doesn’t trust himself to show it. I thought this was neat.
On the side note, I have read many readers arguing Adolin was bad for Shallan and not good as they perceive him being his rock as negative. In other words, they feel Shallan should progress on her own and she shouldn’t need a rock or something along those lines. Anyone has thoughts on this? My thoughts are while it is quite obvious, to me at least, Adolin is good for Shallan, it is less obvious she is good for him. I think she is… There are moments…. but I find, with the Radiants, they each have a very hard time thinking outside of their person (well not Kaladin, but the other ones yes). Shallan has a very hard time not making everything be about her, her past, her brokeness and, well, it isn’t I blame her for it, but I wonder what it means for her marriage with Adolin.
I do agree the fracturing, even if I didn’t like it, serves to make Shallan not a Mary Sue, but I will argue Adolin being so affable has kind of turned him into a Gary Stu. After reading this book, one of my main questions was: “What is to going to take for Adolin to have a reaction? To be affected by events? To make a mistake? To stop being so perfect all the time?”. So yeah, this, it hasn’t been answered. Adolin’s entire viewpoints clashes with the others for how light they are, for how his issues never seem to matter enough to actually have an impact on him. A real impact.
On Adolin and safehands, I need to point out he was quite embarass when Navani put on a glove back in WoR. I also do not believe he ever was intimate with anyone. His one flaw is he constantly think he is not good enough, he has low self-confidence in the department: I can’t picture him breaking the Alethi conventions and sleeping around. This just doesn’t correlate with his constant blushing and his shyness…. even he gets less shy as the book moves on.
I also wonder about the relevance of mentioning Adolin’s birthmark… Is this going to play a role at some point? Because I thought it would, though I am not sure how.
In conclusion because this is getting long… Lyn, I really want to see the Adolin cosplay costume! I so love when peoeple are cosplaying Adolin :-)
I find the banter between Sanderson characters to be pretty hit or miss, especially when Shallan is involved. This chapter is a massive critical hit.
Natural strata don’t have to be straight.
Although @9 birgit makes a good point with those excellent pictures, I still expect that the strata of Urithru have a magical explanation just due to the quantity and artful nature, although now I have to concede that it’s possible they went out and harvested natural stone with the desired qualities for its magical properties rather than manufacture it from scratch.
First, I have to say that I LOVE this chapter. Even more than the first time I read it. If you couldn’t tell that Shallan and Adolin are perfect for each other from this then I don’t think anything could do it. They really bring out the best in each other. Throughout Oathbringer Shallan as herself is usually distracted or trying to hide, but that doesn’t happen nearly as much as it does when she’s with Adolin. He is such a rock for her, and she totally needs it. As I’m listening to WoA right now and just finished TFE, it’s amazing how much better written this romance is than Vin and Elend (but I love them too).
I have never thought of Adolin as having slept around with all those girls. It just doesn’t seem like his personality, besides the fact that I prefer to think of them characters (and people) as not doing that until proven otherwise. I wonder about the birth mark on the back of the thigh-what an odd detail to include! And how do you see back there anyway?! (Yes, a mirror)
I really wonder about the construction of Urithiru. I know strata (I’m beginning to hate that word btw) can be curved or circular etc, but you don’t usually see all of it in one room-with a knob on the wall too. What was that for? Not hanging pictures like Shallan thinks I’m sure.
Born under the sign of nine-have we ever heard of anything like that yet? I was worried it was a reference to Adolin being influenced by Odium but thankfully he isn’t. Yet. And I hope never! He’s my favorite.
Have fun at JordanCon everyone. It looks so fun! And Lyn looks great in her Adolin cosplay-at least she did at the OB launch. But more pics are always better!
“Netflix and divide by zero” has a nice ring to it, doesn’t it?
Thanks Alice and Lyndsey,
This was a fun chapter! Obviously the “No Mating” quote pretty much steals the show, but I like Shallan playfully giving Adolin grief for entering her room (after she unwittingly gave him permission to enter, by the way!) almost as much as Pattern’s now famous phrase.
I was pretty much in the “Adolin/Shallan” couple camp before reading this chapter, but after reading it I was almost certain that this was the right pairing in the Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin triangle. Her choosing to be with Adolin at the end of the book feels earned due to scenes like this one.
And Pattern clearly would be a better chaperone than Syl…
Great article as usual.
Alice, I hate to be _that_ guy, but this the second time in recent months I’ve had to call you out on the “phase/faze” issue. :-)
Seriously, though, keep up the great work.
I love this chapter. It might be the cutest and funniest chapter in the book. I think this is the chapter which made me like the Adolin/Shallan relationship that much more. They’re so playful and sweet together. I think I like Shallan more in general just because of how she interacts with Adolin. I have always been a hardcore Kaladin fan, but Shallan and Kaladin were never going to work out.
And I always thought Adolin was no stranger to extra marital activities. I find it hard to believe that a young man, a high prince’s son, that all the girls are after, wouldn’t take advantage of his situation in at least some of his many relationships. Added with how unblushing and comfortable he is around talk of it. I don’t know. It just never occurred to me that he wouldn’t be experienced I guess.
And on a side note: See you guys at JordanCon tomorrow! I will be basically living in the Sandertrack room so come say hi to me!
On Adolin’s birthmark: I can see the back of my tight perfectly well if I twist around my head. Also, his mother or his Nannie might have commented on it when helping him dress as a boy or while supervising him in his bath. I really do not feel it is an indication of Adolin having done “things” with the young ladies.
@15: Adolin blushes when he sees Navani with a glove. He blushes when Shallan tries to kiss him and was very shy with intimacy all throughout WoR. He blushes a lot in WoR and he is downright ill-at-ease with physical proximity: Shallan comments on how Adolin isn’t being physically forward which seems to me the opposite behavior one would expect out of a young man having done it with several young ladies. In other words, his relationships were all so short, if he were to have sex with the girls, then he would need to be very forward with them on day one. This clashes with how we have seen him with Janala, Mashala, Danlan and Shallan. I think readers just think he must be sexually active because the “serial dater” trope implies he must be, but then again, the reasons why Adolin is a serial daters indicate the opposite. He thinks he is not good enough for relationships… With this mindset, him being active with his dates really seems off.
Adolin’s quip to Shallan about her ego not counting as a separate individual is my favorite line in this Chapter. As Lyndsey noted, this chapter contains a bunch of good quotes.
I would love to be a fly on the wall if Pattern and Syl where teaching a sex ed class to middle school, age kids.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
This chapter was a favorite and solidified Shalladolin for me. I’m always ready for more chapters w/Pattern
As for the “sign of 9” thing, really hope that it comes into play later but not a “champion” kinda way. I feel like that would imply Adolin doesn’t have a choice when we know that’s not been the case, at least for his dad
I didn’t take Adolin’s birthmark knowledge as evidence that he had been sexually active. As you say, someone probably mentioned it when taking care of him as a child. Personally, I need a mirror to see the back of my legs, and am too nearsighted to see the reflection in much detail. Makes it difficult to check for ticks.
I never thought that Adolin was sexually active. I believe that his courtship troubles stem from the fact that he is socialable. He will talk to anybody, even other woman. Moreover, he has a roving eye. When he is on a date, most woman will find this a deal breaker. Just my two cents.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I have to echo everyone else and say how much I adore this chapter. I adore Adolin and Shallan together as well. I personally like it when people follow through on their commitments, so for her to back out and go for Kaladin would have really made me start disliking Shallan (who is my favorite character, so that would have been awful!). This is why I also love the Wax & Steris romance in the second Mistborn trilogy (whited out in case anyone here hasn’t read the Wax & Wayne novels and plans to).
It seems worth noting to me that Shallan tells Adolin “neither of us is going to mess this up”. She is right in a way since it is not Shallan but Veil who has an interest in Kaladin. Of course she will eventually have to accept that Veil is a part of herself, but for her state in this book, this works well.
I also love Adolin, and to answer Gepeto above – it doesn’t bother me that Shallan gets a “rock” in Adolin. I wish all people were lucky enough to have such a partner. No one is perfect, and it is a beautiful thing to have a spouse who is strong where you are weak, and vice versa. It also doesn’t bother me that Adolin is always happy and just so capable, because I know men like that in real life. It is lovely to read about someone who just seems so genuinely good. I am in the camp of assuming he didn’t sleep around for a few reasons: 1) I just want it to be the case. He seems so perfect in every way, and marrying the “perfect” man just to get an STD would be a major bummer. 2) When we are in his head, he doesn’t seem to think of the women he is courting in that way. In fact, they seem to have the upper hand in some of these scenes, which likely wouldn’t be the case if he was abusing his status by sleeping with them. 3) He legitimately seems to care about it being improper to be alone with Shallan in her room here, implying he cares about custom. We know it is customary for Alethi to wait until marriage (or at least considered proper, who knows how many follow the custom) since Dalinar was so insistent upon it with Navani. All in all, though, it isn’t too important to me. I am happy that he and Shallan are happy, and I hope we see their marriage blossoming when we get into Book 4!
@18: I agree turning to Odium merely because he is born into the sign of nine would feel like the author is robbing the character from its agency. It has been one of the reasons why I never thought it meant much.
@20: WoB and textual evidence points towards Adolin thinking he is not good enough for relationships. As a result, he unconsciously sabotages most of them. Hence, the roving eye isn’t the reason why it fails, it is the symptom of what is not working. In other words, he doesn’t do it because he really has a roving eye, more because he can’t commit due to not thinking he is worth it.
Here is the most relevant WoB on the matter:
So huh just my two cents. This is how I read the character anyway. It fits with his constant worry over not being “worthy” within OB.
More on Adolin’s birthmark: It could also be big… Like, hard to miss whenever he is dressing down. I really wondered why Brandon gave us this detail. My first thoughts were Shallan would need to identify Adolin and the birthmark would be the, huh, the way she would know “it is him”. Hmm, this is kind of stupid and I have no idea how this would fit into any narrative, but this is what my brain told me when I read it. For whatever it is worth.
OMG This is the chapter I’ve been waiting for. Adolin is my favorite character. Shallan and Pattern vie for second place. So there, my three favorite characters “alone” together in a chapter. Needless to say, this is also my favorite chapter in all of OB.
I’ll echo everyone’s opinion how adorable Pattern was a chaperone. The “no mating” and “inappropriate like dividing by zero” is nearing “battle cry” level for this book.
But, I have to put in my two cents and opine that Adolin still holds his V-card. I can’t quote any WoB or 17th Shards or any chapters in all three Stormlight Archive books. It’s just a feeling I have. Quite frankly, I wish someone already held Adolin’s V-card. I need to see a naughty Adolin. LOL
I re-listened to this chapter this morning in preparation for this re-read. And though I do enjoy Kate Redding, I really wished that either Sebastian York or Zachary Webber is voicing Adolin. Somehow, Kate (and Michael Kramer for that matter) just do not do justice to my imagination of Adolin as this sexy hunk of a prince. Ha! Ha!
But, as the saying goes, if wishes were horses, then beggars would ride. So, I’m back to my imagining. :-)
For what it’s worth, I’m in the camp with those who do not believe Adolin has been sleeping around, although that now also seemed to be confirmed by the WoB Gepeto provided. I don’t necessarily always-always see eye to eye with Gepeto, but today, all her comments have been perfect, I especially love the remark about Adolin’s intelligence. Like dashichka, I am a devoted Kaladin fan, but I am happy Shallan ends up with Adolin as they are just so perfect for each other.
Not worth even one cent, I know, never alone two, and I probably would have been happy to agree with the rest of the comments silently, but an (insignificant) parallel just occurred to me. It popped to my head that Adolin is just like Maia from “The Goblin Emperor” – sometimes you just have a character who is utterly sweet and kindhearted and good, and you can just enjoy it instead of trying to find things that might trip him :)
Re dividing by zero: I would expect a stormwarden to understand the reference.
BTW, does anyone else see the stormwardens as analogous to this world’s alchemists? That is, they have some techniques that are useful, but since they don’t actually understand the phenomena they’re trying to predict they are also frequently wrong, and different groups know different things and keep them secret from each other? (After all, Roshar seems to be “secret conspiracy land” in general.)
For metatextual reasons, I’m in the “Adolin starts Oathbringer as a virgin” camp. Sanderson seems to prefer for his heroes to wait until marriage and Adolin is very clearly a hero.
For counter-examples, I believe I can think of one pairing. Apologies if the white text doesn’t work because this is my first time attempting it. Wayne and the mistwraith.
@21: It isn’t it bothers me, I just worry Adolin is the only one giving within this relationship. I also worry about him needing to be Shallan’s rock: relationships are about giving, but they also are about receiving. It seems to me they work better when neither is dependent on the other. This also was one of the Kaladin/Shallan counter-arguments: Kaladin sees Shallan as a copying mechanism. Had they pursue a long-term relationship, Shallan might have become the one individual to constantly pull him out of his depression: some of us thought it wasn’t fair and it didn’t bode well. Hence, in OB, when Adolin became Shallan’s rock, Shallan’s way of copying, when he was presented as something she needed to be sane, it brought back memories of those discussions.
If we think Kaladin/Shallan wouldn’t have worked out because Shallan can’t be expected to constantly up-lift Kaladin’s mood, he has to learn how to do it himself, then why are we thinking it is great Adolin is to be Shallan’s rock, spending a life-time needing to pull her out of her fractioning? Is it fair to him? And when they tide shifts, when it is him who needs her, will she be able to be this person or will she be too busy being lost being Veil?
I find the “Adolin is Shallan’s rock” commentary to be a double-edged knife. It is adorable, upon the first read, but it am not sure it is fair for either one of them. And there is the fact Shallan is still lying to Adolin…. She married him without telling him the truth about herself… Shouldn’t this matter?
@24: Thanks, I am glad you enjoyed my post :-) I haven’t read The Goblin Emperor, so huh, I cannot comment on Maia’s character. I can however comment on “sweet” and “kindhearted” characters which also echos @21’s post.
I don’t think I have anything against such characters: I think I could come to enjoy such a character in a given narrative. I however feel too many things are happening to Adolin, too many events are unraveling around him for this trope to work well with him. Thus, instead of “warming my heart”, Adolin constantly feels like an unfinished product, a half-fleshed out character: someone very interesting with a lot of interesting potential, but it never really pans out into a narrative.
Hence, in this series, I find Adolin’s character is constantly tethering on the edge of “interesting” and “too perfect”. Brandon infused a lot of great elements into the character, but the fact he never trips is starting to wear thin, at least for me, as a reader. I just don’t believe in people not having a threshold. Everyone does, except Adolin, it seems. And there is also this narrative with Maya which I sincerely believe cannot work if Brandon takes the road of having Adolin do the impossible out being just “too nice and kindhearted”, but YMMV.
A good example, related to this chapter, would be how Adolin has been written as a character struggling with relationship. He didn’t fail with just one or two women, but dozens and dozens. He constantly sabotages his relationship, while presented in a comical manner, no one can have such a track record without it hiding some issues or another. However, in OB, Adolin’s problems just…. vanish. He seemingly met the right girl, it erases his track record and his issues are no longer crippling. He does try to back down, but only because he believes Shallan loves another. She does not let him and this is the end. His issues are gone, disappeared without him needing to spend any visible time pondering on them nor working on himself. It is where the “sweet” character trope fails with Adolin: he is not perfect, but his reaction to events is always perfect. How realistic is this? As far as I am aware, people with such an impossibly positive outlook on events either lived a very easy life and were never challenged and/or use it as a copying mechanism. Adolin is not the first and the later never really seems to fit into the narrative.
Just my two cents anyway.
@@@@@ Gepeto, 27 – You make really some good points. I especially agree that it seems shady that he struggled so much with other relationships only to succeed in this one. The way I accepted that is that I remember him thinking that having the betrothal arranged for him would take some of the pressure off. Thus, he was able to be himself more without focusing on the relationship’s inevitable (as he sees it) end. We also see him upsetting one of his girlfriends by ignoring her to investigate Elhokar’s cut girth. That kind of thing would interest Shallan, and she would likely get involved unlike that particular girlfriend (and perhaps other young light-eyed women; I don’t know that we have a good enough sampling of them to see how they behave in general). I also think Shallan is somewhat unique in her acceptance of Adolin’s roving eye, as someone else mentioned. She despises jealousy, so she chooses not to feel it. That said, I am still convinced it will all be rosy all the time. While I think they are great together, marriage is hard work, so I expect there will indeed be growing pains, and I hope we do get to see a few of them.
I know it looks like Adolin is the rock and Shallan is the only one receiving, but I am not sure I really believe that. Shallan has plenty to offer – she is loyal, family-oriented, extremely perceptive, and immensely discrete (not to mention a Radiant!). I can see Adolin valuing all of that since he shares the loyalty and focus on his family, while also being a generally happy person. Others tend to miss his fluctuations in mood and emotion because they are not obvious, but we have seen Shallan pick up on them in several instances (especially in the beginning in discussions around Sadeas’ murder). Eventually, once she fesses up, she will be able to offer insight into the Ghostbloods when/if they begin working in opposition to Dalinar’s goals.
This also may be a stretch but does she offer fertility? I don’t know if this has ever been addressed, but it seems very strange to me how small Alethi families are. They have this war-worshiping society where countless men are killed in small civil border skirmishes, not to mention the war on the Shattered Plains, but all the families we see have I believe 2 children at most, and Torol and Ialai Sadeas had no children. I may be wrong, but I believe we have seen large families in Jah Keved (Shallan), the Horneater Peaks (Rock), and Herdaz (Lopen – you can’t have so many cousins without big families). I can’t think of any large Alethi families, even among the dark-eyed Alethi in Hearthstone. I was just curious if this had ever been addressed because their cultural fixation on war would seem to require large families to maintain any level of population. It seems to me that with their war casualties and small family sizes, they should be slowly dying out.
@28: I would be willing to accept the foregone conclusion Shallan merely is the “right one” if Adolin’s relationship issues weren’t so drastic. If he’d fail with only a handful of girls, then yeah, I’d buy it, but the fact he had to date every single eligible young women in Alethkar before he got to Shallan just makes it rather unsatisfying she merely is “right” for him. I find it hard to believe every single other young women was uninteresting and uninterested in him: this just makes no sense.
It is true Adolin was relieved to have his marriage be arranged which is actually one of the arguments against Adolin/Shallan. Some readers feel Adolin only marries Shallan “to make it work just once” and not because he really wants it to. This isn’t how I personally read the narrative, but I do agree Adolin issues with the relationships are more or less glossed over. It mattered within the previous books, but now comes the time to tie the knot, they are gone.
On the side note, I need to state Adolin eyed one woman, once, at the beginning of his first date with Shallan. This isn’t a habit he has Shallan has been kind enough to put up with.
I think you are right in saying Shallan does seem to catch on Adolin’s fluctuating mood. He tends to keep those to himself or not to be the emphasis on them. Hence, I personally took note how Shallan often takes his hand or his arm whenever he is unnerved I always read those scenes as her offering her silent support. So yeah, I think it is right to say Shallan does have something to offer. I just worry about Adolin being her rock as this seems one step further than what would be healthy in a relationship: Shallan needs to learn to be strong on her own. She must not solely rely on Adolin: this isn’t fair to him nor to her.
Ah the size of families: we spoke of this on occasions. I am a few chapters ahead in my re-read and I just read the chapter where Dalinar fights Aratin Khal… General Khal’s second son. Adolin impersonate another one in Kholinar and we know the General also has a daughter. So huh, not all families are small, just the Kholins and Kaladin’s, it seems.
Edit: Also, Highprinces Ruthar has more than two sons…
But yeah, Shallan does offer fertility… It has been theorize Brandon may have Shallan/Adolin have a child during the one year gap. In a general manner, I have seen most readers react negatively to this idea. Most agree Shallan is no where near ready to be a mother and is unlikely to be within the near/medium term. Hence while children are are possibility, they huh may not happen soon. Adolin may still die before he gets Shallan pregnant… He remains the number one contender for the next character death.
Gepeto @@@@@ 27 – There are so many things I want to say and chances are this will be a wall of text. I will also probably jump from topic to topic on your post. So here goes…
In terms of romantic fiction, heroes and heroines usually have problems with relationships until they meet “The One.” Call it a trope if you want, but that is the way it is when it comes to the romance genre. So for Adolin to be a serial dater, well… as a romantic hero, he is not alone. Check out contemporary or even Regency romances and you will find that the men are usually serial daters before they find their true love, which of course, is the heroine.
But, this is the Stormlight Archive and Brandon puts in his own interpretation of a romantic relationship. So, we have a seemingly “perfect” hero and and “imperfect” heroine. Call it gender swap because the norm is that the hero is imperfect and the heroine is perfect.
Also, even in WoR, Adolin was already changing. He was tired of being a playboy. He even said himself that perhaps a causal is the way to go. So, he is truly ready to settle down. Adolin’s problems (serial dating) did not go away simply because he met a girl. It went away because he met “The One” and more importantly, he wanted to change. Perhaps at the ripe old age of 23, he has finally grown up. :-)
But, Adolin did trip. He killed Sadeas. So, Adolin is not perfect.
It does matter. But, I believe it will be discussed in the next books. We have three more books in the first pentalogy. And, like what I said before, Shallan’s one session of psychotherapy with Hoid will not cure her. Shallan’s problems are deep. I won’t be surprised if it will be in the 5th book until we see Shallan finally shed off all her psychological problems.
Wow! That’s a huge assumption. You might be right, but I disagree with Adolin not fitting in the narrative. He fits very well. Because, if he did not, Brandon could have killed him off. There had been so many times that Adolin could have been killed. First thing that comes to mind was in the Tower in WoK.
Brandon has killed of Sadeas and Elhokar. And though perhaps it was a mistake, Eshonai was also killed.
Quite frankly, I hope that Brandon see Adolin as fitting into the narrative because if he dies, it will break my heart. So please, be careful in what you’re saying because it might come true.
Is it possible that Adolin’s previous relationships didn’t work well because he didn’t quite fit in with Alethi culture properly? I am thinking of a statement near the end of the book where Dalinar remarks “we took shardblades women, they took literacy from us. I wonder who got the better deal?” and implies that women got the better end of it. Maybe I am reading to much into it but there seems to be a degree of control that the Alethei woman have by being the “smart” ones in the relationship and Adolin constantly shows that he’s smarter than he first appears. I think someone mentioned in a previous thread that it’s possible that like in the real world some men are smarter by women than them, some Alethi women are threatened by men who are as smart, if not smarter than them. I am NOT saying that Adolin is smarter than Shallan or even as smart, but he IS probably smarter than the STEREOTYPICAL dumb Alethi jock, and he isn’t good at hiding his intelligence.
W
Gepeto @@@@@ 29
It does make sense because there is only “One” for you. Perhaps, I’m too much a romantic even in real life because I do believe in “The One”. I dated before I met my husband. And I had steady boyfriends. They are also long term (at least in my eyes) because they lasted for a year.
Still, when I was dating, I will know within the first three dates whether there is a future for us. And those who became long term, a year was enough for me if we can talk about forever.
When I met my husband, I just knew. The other men (or boys if I count my high school and college days) were just dates. And according to my husband, he felt the same way about me. His mother told me that a month after he met me, he called his mother and said, “Mom, I met a girl.” And his mother knew that her son was going to get married soon.
And yes, we did get married within a year and has been married for a long time.
@27, Gepeto:
I think that’s a caricature of what others have said, though. Nobody I’m aware of thinks Adolin should be (or has been) nothing but a Shallan support system. Maybe it seems that way to you because she’s much more of a viewpoint character and we only get Adolin’s viewpoint when he’s in desperate distress so far?
@28, Evelina:
He’s never had a “relationship” before, IMO. He liked to have a girl on his arm but he never seems to have been actually close to any of them.
@30, sheiglagh:
That’s not a trip. Killing Sadeas was a correct decision and a morally-required action. IMO.
@33 Maybe killing Sadeas was the correct decision (I think I might actually agree with you that it was necessary), but Adolin didn’t do it because it was correct, he did it because he snapped. That being said I do NOT think what happens in Oathbringer is Adolin justifying himself killing Sadeas, what is happening in my opinion is him COMING TO TERMS WITH IT. And not necessarily a coming to terms with it being the RIGHT thing to do, so much as a NECESSARY thing to do. Him telling Shallan about it is akin Basically Adolin realises that he snapped. But he ALSO realizes that even if he could go back and do it over again he wouldn’t. He regret’s that it had to be done more, than doing it. And yet you can see the guilt that this plagues on him. I think his scene with Shallan can be read akin to (but obviously not identical to) the Christian sacrament of confession, when one confess his sins. For a similar scene in a different medium watch Sisko in Star Trek DS9 episode In The Pale Moonlight. For those of you have seen that episode you know what I mean when I say that one of Sisko’s most poignant lines is “and the most damning thing of all, i think I can live with it.”
@30: Nice post.
I am well aware of the serial bee-killer being a standard trope within romance fiction, but as a reader I tend to prefer narratives which lean more onto the realistic side of things. Serial daters I have known all had their issues: for some it was narcissism, for others it was a fear of being hurt again after a painful break-up. In each case, I could root down the behavior to something and the something never quite disappeared when the “right girl” appears, not without the guy getting introspective and taking the decision to work on himself.
Hence, while such characters are quite likely prevalent, if not the normality, within works of romance (I trust your expertise in the matter, you know far more than I do on the matter), I have come to expect more out of Brandon Sanderson. After all, isn’t he the author which is praised all across the web for his precise and realistic depiction of depression? Of Shallan’s crippling issues? In each character, Brandon took care to write them in a realistic manner despite them not evolving in a realistic world. This has been one of SA’s greatest strengths…. so why stop the work at Adolin? Why take the road of romance work and has his issues resolve in, the perhaps standard way as far as romance goes, but mostly the very unrealistic way where his issues just never existed in the first place.
“The One” is not a narrative ploy I find satisfying nor do I find it offers resolution. As I said, had Adolin’s problems been lesser, sure I would buy it and not speak of it, but this isn’t what Brandon wrote. He wrote a character who has dated every single young woman in his entire country and he broke off with each and every one of them despite claiming he “really wanted to make it work”. This is crippling. The scope of his failures is just absurd, hence I expect a better, stronger resolution than just having Shallan walk in as the “perfect girl for him”.
I can’t speak of the role reversal with run-of-the-mill romance narratives as I am not familiar enough with them to comment. I can however state Adolin often comes across as the Prince Charming in the narrative: the perfect prince who can do no wrong and who takes in the imperfect low-born girl even if, well, Shallan kind of raises above him in station. It is very mixed up, not a direct trope, but linking a character to Prince Charming is never a good thing as this is one character trope which never gets development and tends to be very bland.
But, Adolin did trip. He killed Sadeas. So, Adolin is not perfect.
Did he? Where was the emotional turmoil following his actions? Where was the guilt? Where was the ramification which actually involve Adolin? And what does Adolin tell us at the end? He would do it again and again. He never tripped. He never made a mistake. He did what he felt he needed to do. He did not trip. This wasn’t Adolin doing a mistake. Hence, as far as the narrative is concerned, even when Adolin does something readers perceive as a mistake, he remains perfect as it wasn’t one.
I won’t be surprised if it will be in the 5th book until we see Shallan finally shed off all her psychological problems.
Whatever Brandon chooses to write, I sincerely hope Shallan’s issues will not be the focus on the next two books, a side arc, yes, but not the strong focus we got in OB, but YMMV. I did not like she chose to marry Adolin without telling him anything about her past or even her current involvement with the Ghostbloods. I did not like reading Adolin was “treating Veil as a drinking partner” as my thoughts are Adolin shouldn’t have to deal with Veil. Veil is not real. It is just very odd in terms of relationship, in the end.
You might be right, but I disagree with Adolin not fitting in the narrative.
This isn’t what I meant: I misspoke. I didn’t mean Adolin is not fitting within the narrative, I am saying whatever makes Adolin have such a positive out-take on life is never the topic of any sub-arc as, as such, it doesn’t fit into the narrative. Brandon took the time to flesh out many characters, but with Adolin, it seems he stopped half-way.
I also do not believe Brandon will change anything on his writing plans because some readers are saying Adolin may die Readers have been saying Adolin will probably die since WoK. He does appear like the right contender: he has no function within the narrative, no definite role, no narrative to call his own, but he has strong ties to everyone else. A lot of readers are hoping Brandon will kill Adolin to create “a moment”. I would hate if the author were to take this road, I would rather he decides to finish fleshing out Adolin, but I cannot say this isn’t a narrative possibility.
@31: I think book evidence is Adolin IS much smarter than most people take him for, including his own family, including his own brother. There is also book evidence Adolin takes a lot more after Evi then he tends to let on, so yes, there is a possibility it works better with Shallan because she allows him to be… him and him is not Alethi, him is not Riran either, it is somewhere half-way and it has other roll their eyes as his “westerner” behavior towards the end.
Still, not much of it come at the end of a narrative, it still leaves me, as a reader, why Brandon having crafted such beautiful characters just didn’t go all the way through with Adolin.
@32: Well, yes there is someone which is right for you or, I would say, there are quite a few someones which would be right for you. It is normal to date some until finding someone which is right. It however is not normal to have dated 20, 30, 50 girls and not have met one which would be right. It is the scope of it which makes me think.
As I have said, had Adolin dated a few girls before he met Shallan, even if none of the relationship lasted long, I would buy it. Brandon however took care to state Adolin dated everyone. This is where we fall outside the normal “casual dating” up until “someone right” comes along which is basically how it is for most people. Adolin was however quickly put outside of normality. He does reflect on it in this chapter: he says it is worst for him, but then everything gets resolve without feeling… well resolved.
In other stuff does anyone else want to have an Elantris reread once Oathbringer is finished?
@33:
I think that’s a caricature of what others have said, though. Nobody I’m aware of thinks Adolin should be (or has been) nothing but a Shallan support system. Maybe it seems that way to you because she’s much more of a viewpoint character and we only get Adolin’s viewpoint when he’s in desperate distress so far?
This comes out of several pages long discussion which happened elsewhere. Agreed, this particular discussion was heavily set against Adolin/Shallan, but some of the points brought forward were interesting. The rock thing did make me think. As a reader who always preferred Adolin/Shallan, I’ll admit I didn’t think it would be healthy for Shallan to become Kaladin’s copying mechanism. Hence, I have to reflect if it is right for Adolin to essentially serve the same function for her in the actual canon.
This being said, I do not think all Adolin is is a support system, but yeah, without any viewpoints, it is very hard to get a sense of how actually feels inside this relationship. It is hard to feel what he gets from it, like really gets. It is one aspect of the romance arc which tends to be criticized: we never get Adolin’s viewpoint, he’s like the third wheel on the barrow, unimportant, and it did bother me. It bothered me what he thinks, what he feels wasn’t considered important in the resolution of this particular narrative.
He’s never had a “relationship” before, IMO. He liked to have a girl on his arm but he never seems to have been actually close to any of them.
Precisely. He made sure to screw it up before it became a relationship, worst he’s been doing it unconsciously which is another reason why it bothers me. As far as we can tell, he doesn’t control his screwing up mechanism, it is unconscious, so how can it realistically disappear from the narrative without him actually working for it?
@34: To be honest, I found. within my first read, Adolin murdering Sadeas had so little focus in the narrative, it basically leaves readers enough to room to speculate in whichever way it pleases them to. I personally didn’t find Adolin was regretting his actions nor thinking he wished he didn’t have to do it. Mildly so, a bit towards the end, but all in all, Adolin is very secure with his actions, does not see them as a problem nor something which needs to be taken care of.
Also, Adolin explicitly states if he were put into the same situation again, he would act in exactly the same manner. He has zero regret nor remorse. He would do it again in the blink of an eye and not lose sleep over it.
The fact Brandon made Adolin kill a man in, what initially appears a very hotted way, only to morphed it into the very cold-heartened rational killing without any emotion served to have some readers speculate the worst. Brandon once said characters couldn’t commit murder without it leaving scars, so where are Adolin’s scars? The murder left none.
Adolin essentially acted like a psychopath. He killed and he felt nothing afterwards. This is a very odd take on a character having been very emotional so far and I still have no idea what Brandon meant for his readers to get out of this narrative.
@37 Well we still have more books. Only time will tell for sure.
@35 Speaking of realistically portrayed psychological issues. Have you ever read the manga Noragami? The Main character Yato is rare example of the long term ramifications of emotional abuse done WELL in a manga. If you haven’t read it I HIGHLY recommend it.
Yes, count me as another who loves this chapter as a nice breath of fresh air – it’s nice to see a couple who are simply sweet together and build each other up.
For now I’m leaning towards the ‘Adolin is a virgin’ camp for a few reasons. One is my own bias and how I like my heroes to act, although I generally don’t raise an eyebrow when it’s not the case unless there is obvious pressuring/objectification going on.
But given that his ‘relationships’ seem to last so little time and he never gets a chance to really bond or get to know the person, if he really was sleeping with all of them as a matter of course, I think it would stray into a more casual/use based outlook than I prefer. It’s possible he may have slept with a handful but unless we hear otherwise I’m assuming no.
Storywise I think Adolin is as others have pointed out, also a little too shy for that to have been the case, and probably still a little more bound by societal strictures than a modern person would be. His serial dating seems to be more a manifestation of his own issues than him being a playboy.
@@@@@ 29 Gepeto – Thank you! I had missed some of those references in the book and am relatively new to these discussions. I was just thinking of the main highprinces we see and Kaladin’s, Roshone’s, and Laral’s families. Looks like I need another reread of the earlier books sometime soon!
@Gepeto, you say, “I think book evidence is Adolin IS much smarter than most people take him for, including his own family, including his own brother.” Yes! He’s actually very smart, but he adopts a persona of being a brainless fop. Shallan, in fact, is one of the few who sees through it, and one of the one people he lets his intelligence show for. That’s one thing she does for him (ironically): she is the only person he drops his dumbass persona for–and note that he’s the one person she voluntarily tells about her alternate personae. There is actually something underlying their relationship.
Mentioned uptopic: Sanderson has a habit of making many, many characters virgins or otherwise chaste who wouldn’t be in other authors’ hands. For instance, in the Scadrian underworld, there are … no non-monogamists? Vin, a girl who has lived in the underworld her whole life, is a virgin? Kelsier is a monogamist despite being a creator-described psychopath?
It isn’t universal, but most of his viewpoint characters actively don’t have sex. As far as I can tell from published and one unpublished books, Hoid is a virgin after millennia. Mr. Rule-Ignorer himself! (Obviously he’s had literally thousands of years of adventures we haven’t seen, but he’s never shown even being attracted to anyone so far.)
I thought Kelser was a Sociopath not a psychpath? Correct me if I am wrong but aren’t there subtle differences between the two?
@40: We had those discussions before, so I paid more attention to family sizes while reading OB. I have just reached chapter 22 in my re-read, so clues about General Kahl’s family are still very fresh.
I love the early part 1 of OB: I am trying to see if I will feel bummed with how it ultimately shapes up this time around or not. I really like those moments where Adolin worries about not being up to Dalinar’s standards. I wish Brandon had taken the time to explore this theme more.
@41: Not being Alethi may have something to do with Shallan being easily able to pierce through Adolin’s brainless fopish personality. Even on their first date, she refuses to allow him downplay his own intelligence. Something interesting caught my interest upon reading, huh, I think it was chapter 19, this morning. It was the feast chapter, 31 years ago, the one we are introduced to Toh and Evi. I noted how they are being described as genuine, innocent and wide-eyed. Later in the book, Dalinar describes Adolin as genuine. Early in OB, Adolin is the one who goes wide-eyed at Dalinar/Navani’s wedding which is exactly the reaction Dalinar expected out of his eldest. There also is an innocence to Adolin, a naivety we sometimes see peeking out.
My thoughts are clues are Adolin takes a lot of his personality traits from his mother… And these happens to be the traits Navani snorts on, the un-Alethi traits as Alethi are cunning, smart (or appear to be smart, arrogant) and manipulative. Hence, it isn’t surprising, given the Alethi’s inclinations, people, including his close family, would dismiss Adolin’s intellectual capacities. Shallan being Veden and not Alethi might have played a role here.
I also thought Shallan naturally opening up to Adolin about her personas was a good sign for their relationship, but she has so much left to say!
On the matter of virgin characters being prevalent, well, in times where pre-marital sex is frown upon, it isn’t surprising. Though, we perhaps tend to ignore the unmarried characters who aren’t virgins: young Dalinar and Kaladin easily come to mind. Sadeas is said to visit the prostitutes despite having a happy marriage with a wife he loves. With Adolin, I think it fits the character, it fits the narrative and it fits his personality he would still be a virgin.Thus, I don’t think every character Brandon writes is a virgin or a monogamist, I just think he doesn’t necessarily put a lampshade on this.
I vote for Adolin still having his V card. In order for him to have “dated” all the girls in the war camp, he couldn’t have been with any one of them more than a week or two. He was having high school style dating. He is also shown as being shy when it gets down to it. Plus, he is being held to Dalinar’s code standards. It would hardly be honorable to have sex and not marry the girl.
As for the whole chapter, it is one of my favorites. The humor worked, the personal interactions worked. The only thing I questioned was the sign of the nine inclusion. Maybe it was just a red herring rather than a foreshadowing. The birthmark may just be there to bring body parts into the discussion.
I don’t know if this has occurred to anyone yet, but the way Adolin is treated in the narrative is an indication of Brandon trope flipping again. His treatment is typical of how females are treated in many books not penned by Sanderson. Inwardly shy while being outwardly boisterous? Check. Adoption of a persona that deliberately hides intelligence? Check. Innocent and maybe slightly naive? Check. Virginal (probably) despite having many suitors? And most importantly, despite being in many scenes we hardly get any insight on character motivations. I see females treated this way in many novels where the female isn’t the main protagonist. Makes me wonder if Adolin was female would the fandom be in as much of an uproar over his relative lack of important things to do.
@46: Interesting commentary… Though I would say Adolin falls more inline with the trope of Prince Charming where the prince is barely fleshed out, often unnamed. Think the classical Disney prince… Now would the fandom reaction to the character be different if he were female? I find this hard to evaluate as Adolin as a female character would be very different: he wouldn’t be a soldier, he wouldn’t be dueling, he wouldn’t be allowed to befriend Kaladin without it being romantic, at least for a given percentage of the fandom. The story would be much different.
I would hazard myself into thinking what makes Adolin interesting is precisely the fact he twists a few tropes over. He is a serial dater, but he is clumsy, awkward and he never made it very far with any one of his dates. He is smart, but unlike your typical male character, he downplays it. Granted, this behavior is more often seen on women, be it in fiction and/or in real-life. Now it is a man who is doing it which is probably what makes up for half of Adolin’s charm.
The shy outwardly boisterous female character is common within works of fantasy, her make counter-part, not so much. Therefore, I would think had Adolin been a female character, he would have fallen into a prevalent trope as opposed to a less common one and, as a result, he might have been less interesting. I hope this wouldn’t be a matter of gender, more a matter of Adolin being male making his refreshing while him being female making him more “typical”.
I can’t speak for the entire fandom, only for myself. I wish Adolin has more interesting to do because I enjoy reading him and I find the ideas revolving around his character to be very interesting, I wish they had more focus, were better developed. I guess I would feel the same about any character I perceive as interesting who isn’t getting enough attention given his/her position within the narrative.
I had a feeling Gepeto would be coming in hot on this chapter.
I’m surprised Alice and Lyndsey support Shadolin this much. I do too, but the prevailing view on 17th shard seems to be that this is an unhealthy / doomed relationship. Gepeto @7 has mentioned this, but for example, Adolin enables Shallan to stay fractured and broken (Shallan feels safe with Adolin so she doesnt need to confront her past or get whole again, Adolin drinks with Veil thus enabling the fracturing to continue). They think for Shallan to confront her truth and get through this crap, she has to stop relying on Adolin (the readers want Shallan to have more agency) and there probably needs to be some event (like a divorce, or Adolin dying) to propel her towards a resolution that she obtains for herself. Also, the secret keeping is a major red flag for the readers.
I love Shallan and Adolin together for various reasons, and while 17th shard have valid points, I wonder why Shallan has to resolve her issues entirely herself for it to be a satisfying outcome. With mental illness, isn’t it the whole idea to have a support network and you’re NOT supposed to have to do it alone? Aren’t you MEANT to have a rock? In fact, as many rocks as you can have?
I agree Shallan’s past was so traumatic that it wouldn’t be realistic for her to be okay with things right after the end of WoR, but that didn’t make her arc any less frustrating. Also did it have to STILL be unresolved by the end of OB?
“NO MATING” is my favourite (non-Important) quote of the entire Stormlight Archive so far.
@BenW, #42: according to authorities I respect, “sociopath” is going the way of “Asperger’s Syndrome”. There is a spectrum of human personality from neurotypical to psychopathic. Someone who is mildly psychopathic will be called “mildly psychopathic”.
@47: There is much I could say about the discussion which happened onto the 17th Shard… My personal feelings were some readers were unsatisfied with how the romance was played out in OB. It seems a majority of those readers were previously favoring Kaladin/Shallan. From my understanding, it isn’t so much the final pairing which bothered some, but how it played out. In other words, some readers felts the romance wasn’t explored well enough to be plausible. They aren’t buying Adolin/Shallan actually love each other. The end result has been a group of readers trying to re-read the entire narrative in hope to rescue their emotional investment with the narrative. They came up with the conclusion Adolin was toxic for Shallan because he, as you say, enables her to stay fractured. They then proceeded to speculate the only way out of this very toxic relationship was for Shallan to either divorce Adolin and/or for him to die. Now the premise of this entire discussion relies on: 1) Adolin/Shallan is bad, 2) they need to stop and the justification is Shallan’s mental state.
Now, some of the points brought forward were interesting such as the rock comment which was taken back by Alice/Lyn, but in a positive positive manner. I took the discussion forward by asking as to whether or not it really was a positive element within their relationship. For the rest, I found discussions of Adolin/Shallan inevitable divorce went one step too far and didn’t seem inline with the narrative. I never understood why which ever issues Shallan has cannot be worked while being married to Adolin, why he needs to be gone for her to progress.
Hence, I do agree with you in saying there is no reason why Shallan cannot use the support of Adolin to work on her issues. My initial questioning was made to reflect as to whether or not it would ultimately be a good thing.
My thoughts also were there are no reasons to believe Shallan’s issues aren’t going to improve. It did seem the worst was gone, by the end of OB, the scene where Veil/Radiant vanishes, I found, was rather telling.
No mating was hilarious.
No mating is a top 5 quote in OB, along with the “you little whore!” that we’ll see a little later. I was in the camp that felt Kaladin/Shallan would be a disaster. That pairing would reinforce each other’s inadequacies and tear each other apart. There would be passion there but also much pain. This scene is an example I would point to in an argument for Adolin/Shallan. They just SEE each other. Good relationships are built on understanding and they understand each other. The problem is that they’re so compatible they have the potential to be boring. Kaladin/Shallan would be the more exciting pairing because dysfunction is always more exciting than stability. If you care about character happiness then Adolin is your guy. If you just wanna see sparks fly then the choice is the brooding bridgeman.
Late to the party and I can only agree that it is a lovely chapter. Except that, for some reason this quote of Shallan’s:
‘You know what, I’ve got this’
seems jarring to me. I know about the stance that it is a “translation” and Lift’s “awesomeness” never bothered me, but for some reason this expression does. Not as much as Shallan talking about her allergies in… I think WoK? – I mean, their medicine is pretty advanced, considering, but there is no indication that they are sufficiently aware of something as complicated as the immune system. But that’s by the by.
Speaking of “the sign of the nine” that was considered pretty sinister during the pre-releases of the OB chapters here on tor.com – lets not forget that number 9 is not just associated with Odium, but also with Talenel, the only Herald who remained true and kept the Desolations back for 4.5 millenia by himself. So, there is definitely room for it having a very positive meaning too.
Adolin’s V-card… hm. I dunno, I feel that it would be unlikely that he’d have it, but Sanderson prefers to leave such things ambiguous for the sake of readers who feel strongly about them. I found Annotations for Well of Acsension to be illuminating in that sense. Nor do I think that cultures theoretically frowning on pre-martital intercourse ever truly applied to the rich and powerful men. I really didn’t feel that Adolin’s social circle in WoK took restrictions of Vorinism seriously, for instance, and, of course, the brothels exist openly, so it doesn’t seem like men in general are limited in that sense. Ahem.
Concerning Kelsier – is he not allowed to mourn for his wife for a couple of years? I never had problems with that.
As to the romance, I feel that there are 3 types of people dissatisfied with it:
1. Shalladin shippers
2. Those who like detailed romances and are disappointed with the seemingly very concise way that it played out, not to mention the many unresolved issues and secrets that Shallan still has, for the marriage to feel like the culmination of it. Adolin seemingly devoting little thought to the relationship in his sparse PoVs doesn’t help.
3. Those who dislike that Shallan is seemingly dependant on Adolin for telling her who her “real” self is, when both Kaladin and Dalinar made fundamental decisions about who they really are while completely alone, even unable to communicate with their spren.
Obviously, nothing is likely to conciliate group 1.
I kinda understand group 2 and agree that the marriage was perhaps overly hasty, since ideally Shallan should have worked through her biggest issues and shared her most important secrets with her intended before they made this commitment. However, the circumstances surrounding it can’t be ignored – namely, the Final Desolation. It is a war-time marriage, where both parties after escaping certain death, are seizing the only chance that they might have. As such, the marriage is not a culmination of anything, but likely just a start of a long road.
I also would have agreed with group 3, if I thought that Adolin had somehow resolved Shallan’s inner conflict. However, I don’t think that this is the case at all – his support only helped her overcome the fragmentation short-term. True resolution and reconciliation is yet to come and can only be achieved by Shallan herself.
After all, both Kaladin and particularly Dalinar were also helped by other people on the way to their self-realisations. In fact, we now know that Dalinar would have never been able to overcome his darker tendencies if not for Evi’s continious prodding.
I like the Adolin/ Shallan match. I have always thought they get along so well because Shallan is not Alethi. The other girls/ women he dated were! There is a big cultural difference between Veden and Alethi activities. She caught his eye first, with that red hair! Then she entangled his mind and humor with her response of “how do you poop!” She never responded to him the way all the other females did, so he was intrigued. The more they spent in each others company the farther the relationship advanced. I predict they will reveal their respective secrets to each other, and find solutions together!
Where did I miss “under the sign of nine”?
Kabranth has the same strata. Discuss.
@48 Two things.
1: As far as I was aware Asperger’s Syndrome was considered the polar opposite of pscyopatchy/sociopathy. People with Asperger’s are generally more compassionate and get distressed by other people’s pain, but have problems showing it in a natural manner. Most have a strong conscience. And an inability to tell a convincing lie to save their life is another common trait. The favored popular-culture consumate liar on the other hand tends to systematically misdirect, manipulate, fake caring mannerisms, etc, without any outward minor twitch/sign that they are doing so, or get intensely sadistic.
I borrowed a lot of that from the useful notes on Asperger’s but I wanted to make my point. As for psychopath vs sociopath I am quoting from an online article but
2: The Difference Between a Psycopath and a Sociopath
While the traits of each may seem similar, it is thought that sociopaths have a less severe form of lack of empathy and lack of guilt. It is thought that sociopaths may be able to form some deep bonds (such as, possibly, with family) while a psychopath ) Moreover, while a sociopath would feel no guilt about hurting a stranger, they may feel guilt and remorse over hurting someone with which they share a bond. Additionally, it appears that some of the very antisocial behavior in sociopaths lessens over time while this cannot be said of psychopaths. Psychopaths appear to have no concern whatsoever of the consequences, while a sociopath may learn to avoid consequences over time by reducing antisocial behavior.
Finally, the presentation of one with psychopathy or sociopathy differs. According to Kelly McAleer, Psy.D,
Both psychopaths and sociopaths are capable of committing horrific crimes, but a sociopath is less likely to commit them against those with whom there is a bond.
After reading the last few comments it occurred to me that both partners having a “terrible” secret and “will they survive when it’s found out”, is also a very common romance trope. I admit to being an urban fantasy romance junkie.
@51: I wouldn’t so readily partitioned the readers dissatisfied with the romance into three groups as it feels they all over-lap in one way or another. For instance, not every single Kaladin/Shallan shipper was unsatisfied with the romance, though it is safe to say the majority of the readers feeling this way are Kaladin/Shallan shippers or so it seems, if I base myself on what I read elsewhere. This being said, many of those individuals did come forward and stated they could come to accept Adolin/Shallan as the chosen ship, but felt the narrative wasn’t strong enough to convince them. In other words, some readers, didn’t feel the romance arc Brandon had to propose was strong enough to change their thoughts on the matter, but many are just waiting to be convinced (think of how Brandon managed to win his readership over with the Wax/Steris romance as opposed to the more popular Wax/Marasi ship). Unfortunately, the small focus the romance had, the absence of Adolin as a viewpoint character and the lack of follow-up onto the chasm adventure seemed like it made up for a narrative which worked for those who disliked the romance and/or those who were already sold onto the Adolin/Shallan relationship. I could also add how Kaladin goes from “I think I love her” to “she is just a friend” within one single page and it didn’t convince some readers. And the rock thing-y. And the fact Adolin supposedly “creates” Radiant which is bad for Shallan, the list never ends.
I find this discourse is very similar to the one stating only readers who were convinced Adolin would make a good Edgedancer prior to reading OB finished the book thinking he was a good candidate. The narrative didn’t sell the idea of Adolin as both an Edgedancer and a Radiant strong enough to win over readers who didn’t like the arc to begin with.
For myself, the romance was a hit and miss: I am moderately fine with it. In a general manner, I like how it played out, but I didn’t like how the author decided Adolin didn’t matter in the romance, his thoughts, his feelings being, as a rule of thumb, evacuated from this narrative. Since this is one of the elements readers have criticized, I tend to think it is one narrative aspect where Brandon did drop the ball. I feel he underestimated the page time the entire arc needed to truly work out for his readership or perhaps it was he was influenced by readers saying: “No love triangle please” and, as a result, made it as small as possible. I don’t know. Maybe it is none of this. This is a narrative aspect which is hard to discuss because readers are so polarized on it: each time one comes forward to formulate a critic, another one will jump in and say it worked fine for him. Therefore, where to cut the pear? Who is right? Who is wrong?
It is just the same as when I say I feel Adolin doesn’t have enough page time: someone else jumps in and say they loved Adolin in OB and thought it was perfect. Am I right? Am I wrong? How can I know if I am right or wrong when not everyone agrees?
So to jump back onto the romance, I do think speculations of Adolin/Shallan’s divorce and/or Adolin’s death also happened as readers who disliked the romance tend to be, in a general manner, unsatisfied with Adolin’s character. They feel he has come into a dead-end within the narrative: his potential is never explored, hence better to kill him off, save the romance and/or destroy his marriage and hope it will impact the character, for once.
Oh and one problem I tend to have with group 3 is the fact all discussions of Shallan solving her issues while being married to Adolin, well, those discussions never happened. They don’t exist. No one seems to think it is possible, well, not on those threads, it depends who you talk to.
@55: Very informative post. I think, based on this, we can safely state no characters in SA is a psychopath. Unless someone has a different take… Sociopath however… I would say young Dalinar and Taravangian. Maybe Jasnah, but someone I doubt it.
There are researchers who want to try and distinguish between sociopathy and psychopathy in order to finish a dissertation or make there mark in their field, but diagnostically speaking they are historic, descriptive terms for what is currently diagnosed as antisocial personality disorder (APD).
Theorists in the past debated the use of the terms sociopath/psychopath to argue causation of the condition of APD (biological versus sociological, born or made), although researchers are returning to the use of term psychopath(y) and would like to argue that subsets of those with APD are either “psychopaths” or “sociopaths” to try and distinguish between the various presentations of the condition (e.g., cold hearted, thrill seeking, hot/impulsive etc…).
Further confusion to the curious who follow the field came about in the psychometric historic use of the term, “psychopathy” in the PCL-R and it’s predominate use as a research tool.
Really both terms are insufficient in their own ways and I wish the research community would embrace the common terminology adopted by the DSM and then subcategorize from there by advocating for the adoption of certain specifiers to the condition of APD, much the same way Mood Disorders such as Bipolar have their own unique specifiers.
Co-occuring conditions and different personality types can certainly influence the expression or flavor to the diagnostic traits of APD just like they do for any other condition and I find this a much more helpful framework to build off of diagnostically speaking. So complex issues like psychosis, pervasive cognitive delusions, froteurism, sexual sadism, or Narcissistic Personality Disorder to the more mundane aspects of the Big 5 like extroversion or introversion, organized or more carefree will all have their say in how an individual with APD interacts with or impacts their social environment. Personally I think Dr. Millon has the best way of categorizing subtypes and developing helpful frameworks by far.
APD comes about due to a confluence of factors that manifest visibly as different types of neurological abnormalities in the mass, activity, and inter-connective interplay between the frontal lobe, mid brain, and the corpus callosum. The combination of these various deficiencies and subcortical areas within them offer implications for what distinguishes the “sub-types.”
Unfortunately these neurological issues often come about due to early childhood or gestational issues such as malnutrition, exposure to harmful substances (metals, alcohol, smoking) that have a dose-response that is cumulative, not temporary as well as extreme chaos and abuse in family of origin that is currently being argued as having intergenerational implications.
On a completely different note, using the term “spectrum” for the purpose of taxonomy can be helpful and harmful. Helpful for the purposes of learning. Harmful in that it oversimplifies the unique qualities and clinical presentation of conditions such as schizo-phrenia/affective/typal/oid. The most recent example of this was Aspergers subsumption into ASD, Mild which was a massive mistake in my opinion as it would have been better to keep it as a specifier, much in the same way Intellectual Disability is a specifier for ASD, if it is warranted and can be untangled from sensory processing issues.
And I would say Kelsier had narcissistic qualities, but if BWS was going for APD, I’m of the opinion that he missed the mark.
To clarify, I was by no means saying that autism is the same thing as psychopathy. I was just comparing the evolution of the diagnostic psychiatric terminology used to describe those conditions.
I agree with @CireNaes (#58) that Kelsier does not come across as an APD person at all, to me, but Sanderson has said that was his intent. Narcissistic, yes. Grandiose, yes. Lacking all empathy … not so much. Sanderson’s friend Dan Wells, for an example of doing it better, presents his psychopathic protagonist John Cleaver as being completely unable to read people’s emotions from body language (including voice and facial expressions), rather like some autistic people. As CN says (or implies?), people with neurological issues don’t fall into neat categories that are totally mutually exclusive.
@54: I’m in group 4 — envious Grinches who rarely like reading about (or observing) any romance ever. Sanderson has an exceptional ability to sometimes write portrayals of romance that I enjoy. I dislike some of those in the Cosmere series complex, but I like Shallan/Adolin well enough. I never particularly shipped Shallan/Kaladin, though the fact that it won’t happen makes me feel bad for Kaladin because I relate more to him and his depression than to Adolin. I’m not sure how Kaladin feels about their wedding. Do we find out? I don’t remember.
@AeronaGreenjoy (#60): not Kaladin personally, but the gift of boots from Bridge Four was absurdly appropriate and good-natured, wasn’t it?
Anyone else half-expect Kaladin to end up with Laral after Roshone’s death, and perhaps foster Roshone’s young child? After all, Kaladin is now a lighteyes and Fourth Dahn, and furthermore now has an adult’s respect for Laral instead of a child’s mere familiarity.
@61 I was concerned that Kaladin might get involved with Laral again and I was pleased when that didn’t happen.
@60: Your commentary is very typical of those I have seen elsewhere. As a rule of thumb, readers who generally dislike romance were fine with Oathbringer. I somehow shared some of group 1,2 and 3 pains in the sense I like romance, I like character interaction and while I never expected SA to morph into a romance novel, I did expect something a bit more… well just more. As I said above, I am not dissatisfied with the romance arc, I just feel it could have been done a bit better. I am more sadden to see the fandom being broken down and ripped apart as it was. What happened on the 17th Shard… This was beyond sad. Something died a few weeks ago and I am not even sure the fandom has realized it yet.
Shipping, character analysis are what got, for the most part, the fandom going in between the release of WoR and OB. Those readers who enjoy those topics were, on average, very active: the fandom wouldn’t have been half as vibrant without their contribution. Unfortunately OB turned being a book which didn’t, as a rule of thumb, speak strongly to those readers (not everyone, but enough of them this became a topic). They tried to speak of it, but they were eventually shut down, there critics not being considered valid as, of course, there are always those who are fine with it.
In the end, character discussion died down to a trickle except in this re-read where there still are people willing to discuss characters. Elsewhere, it became “something lesser”… something not really worth discussing. And this, this is sad.
Man I hope BS doesn’t read what people say about his works as he writes the next ones. I have thought writing books as he does with such an active beta and alpha reading group must be amazingly difficult….but wow. I can see him giving up on writing after reading the discussions here and on the 17th shard…man. It always amazes me how wrapped up in these stories people get sometimes….how seriously some people take their entertainment. And I say that as someone who reads all these books and all the rereads and loves trying to piece together the series mysteries.
Here’s a second time a spren fills a role that humans are “supposed” to fill. The other time was when the Stormfather conducted the wedding.
@3 and 4: remember when Adolin said “my father would kill me” at the prostitute scene? Yeah, Adolin hasn’t been sleeping around.
Regarding the Urithiru strata discussion, I think it is something natural and unique to Roshar, not man-made by soulcasting or other radiant surge. The descriptions of the patterns are very similar to the descriptions of the red/black/white marbled swirls of the Parshendi skin. Also, the patterns are not unique to Urithiru. They are found in the Kholinar windblades and in the small stones Tien finds around Hearthstone.
My theory is that it is related to the shape of the continent itself, which is a Julia Set fractal. There are lots of swirls and spirals in the Julia Set. The continent was formed by Adonalsium (per several WOBs), and I believe the native lifeforms and geography of Roshar evolved to incorporate this pattern into their material manifestations, like it is the blueprint of the planet and in the DNA of the living beings that evolved there. It’s fascinating to think about and I hope future books give us more info about it.
Edited to add: the Cryptics could be the spren manifestation of this pattern in the cognitive realm. I always think of them as fractalheads. It’s interesting that they are the Lightweaver spren. Both Shallan and Tien are both fascinated with the strata patterns, and both attracted Cryptics in childhood.
If you haven’t listened to the graphic audio for this chapter you need to haha, pattern is done SO WELL. on top of Adolin and Shallan being perfectly cast. It isn’t just the epic scenes they pull off but the quiet funny ones. Honestly I’ve loved the cosmere for almost two decades but the graphic audio is basically the definitive version
Honestly as adorable as this chapter is it is one of Sandersons only real flaws is the super duper chaste views of sex haha, have to be married first, retconning wax to get married, Adolin, what, only ever holds hands with his dates?
Mistborn the only sex was post marriage or assault by nobles on Skaa, Elantris, warbreaker, always arranged marriages.
I know it’s his Mormon stuff and I can respect that but just like he can depict Jasnahs atheism realistically seems like you can have characters with healthy sex lives, everyone isn’t nuns or virgins in the real world regardless of the setting. in a WoB he did say what happens off screen can be your own head canon, honestly no way Adolin is a prude haha.
He is getting better since he has gay couples and people dating in more recent stuff, wax with Melaan and marasi with Alyk
But it’s really minor, I don’t really need that in the series either way. Besides that I wish he’d describe appearances more, never really goes into facial descriptions that often.
But still, being the best book series in decades, he’s allowed a few minor things like that haha